1
00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:01,939
and now a message from the inside of

2
00:00:17,710 --> 00:00:20,110
Oh

3
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,370
sit

4
00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:28,320
hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

5
00:00:34,770 --> 00:00:31,380
show number 29 for the eighth of may

6
00:00:36,330 --> 00:00:34,780
2009 Richard Saunders here with you in

7
00:00:39,270 --> 00:00:36,340
this week's show will have a special

8
00:00:40,770 --> 00:00:39,280
report by dr. Richie where she brings

9
00:00:42,420 --> 00:00:40,780
you up to date in the latest

10
00:00:44,910 --> 00:00:42,430
developments looking at the

11
00:00:47,729 --> 00:00:44,920
anti-vaccination Brigade here in

12
00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:47,739
Australia that's followed by a report

13
00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:49,830
our group of us went to the

14
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:52,000
mind-body-spirit festival here in Sydney

15
00:00:58,680 --> 00:00:55,690
and afterwards over nice dinner we spoke

16
00:01:01,829 --> 00:00:58,690
about what we saw that's followed by our

17
00:01:05,189 --> 00:01:01,839
report from old Adelaide jail where we

18
00:01:07,969 --> 00:01:05,199
interview Alison Oborne who does ghostly

19
00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:07,979
torchlight tours of the jail an

20
00:01:26,730 --> 00:01:10,750
interesting show a bit of a mixture so

21
00:01:36,250 --> 00:01:30,100
now it's time for dr. Rachel reports

22
00:01:39,790 --> 00:01:36,260
with dr. Rachel Dunlop hello everyone

23
00:01:41,590 --> 00:01:39,800
and welcome to dr. Rachel reports last

24
00:01:43,510 --> 00:01:41,600
week on the show I played an interview

25
00:01:46,060 --> 00:01:43,520
with the producer of the Dana McCaffrey

26
00:01:48,910 --> 00:01:46,070
story on channel 7 Sunday night program

27
00:01:51,070 --> 00:01:48,920
Rebecca la Tourneau at the request of

28
00:01:52,930 --> 00:01:51,080
Rebecca we heavily edited the interview

29
00:01:55,330 --> 00:01:52,940
to remove parts where she slammed the

30
00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:55,340
avian or Australian vaccination network

31
00:01:59,560 --> 00:01:57,650
for their scare mongering and spreading

32
00:02:02,860 --> 00:01:59,570
of misinformation about the safety of

33
00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:02,870
vaccines Rebecca was concerned that if

34
00:02:06,910 --> 00:02:04,790
we add her criticisms the day before the

35
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:06,920
filming of a debate in which the avian

36
00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:09,050
want to participate they would accuse

37
00:02:15,490 --> 00:02:12,110
her of bias and pull out she was right

38
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:15,500
to be concerned despite us making the

39
00:02:19,060 --> 00:02:16,970
story more about the McCaffrey's

40
00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:19,070
speaking out to educate people and

41
00:02:23,710 --> 00:02:21,650
removing most references to the avian or

42
00:02:26,140 --> 00:02:23,720
antibac slow be they again went

43
00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:26,150
hysterical they accused rebecca of

44
00:02:31,030 --> 00:02:28,670
one-sided reporting bias and being a

45
00:02:33,070 --> 00:02:31,040
stooge for big farmer of the sunday

46
00:02:35,350 --> 00:02:33,080
night segment they said it was an

47
00:02:37,900 --> 00:02:35,360
example of channel 7 presenting big

48
00:02:40,330 --> 00:02:37,910
farmer propaganda and this time they

49
00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:40,340
flooded our media watchdog program named

50
00:02:45,130 --> 00:02:42,230
Media Watch with complaints about

51
00:02:47,350 --> 00:02:45,140
one-sided reporting and bias we also

52
00:02:49,810 --> 00:02:47,360
wrote to Media Watch to defend channel 7

53
00:02:52,180 --> 00:02:49,820
and Rebecca further they wrote to the

54
00:02:54,490 --> 00:02:52,190
forum discussion program called insight

55
00:02:57,820 --> 00:02:54,500
to ask them to do a repeat of the debate

56
00:03:00,460 --> 00:02:57,830
but this time to do it properly to me

57
00:03:03,130 --> 00:03:00,470
this is akin to a shonky car salesman

58
00:03:07,570 --> 00:03:03,140
being exposed then complaining of unfair

59
00:03:09,790 --> 00:03:07,580
treatment ash no the avian spreads

60
00:03:12,070 --> 00:03:09,800
misinformation and blatant untruths

61
00:03:14,410 --> 00:03:12,080
about vaccinations to those of you

62
00:03:16,540 --> 00:03:14,420
listening who are from the avian or rely

63
00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:16,550
on them for advice about vaccinations I

64
00:03:22,060 --> 00:03:19,310
ask you to listen a little longer and I

65
00:03:23,710 --> 00:03:22,070
ask you to consider this why does Meryl

66
00:03:26,890 --> 00:03:23,720
Dory distribute incorrect information

67
00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:26,900
about vaccinations is it deliberate or

68
00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:28,489
is it simply that she does not have all

69
00:03:33,220 --> 00:03:31,070
the facts what can she possibly gain

70
00:03:34,990 --> 00:03:33,230
from scaring new parents into risking

71
00:03:35,620 --> 00:03:35,000
their own children's health as well as

72
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:35,630
the health of

73
00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:37,970
others I am NOT interested in government

74
00:03:41,790 --> 00:03:40,070
or big pharma conspiracies I am only

75
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:41,800
interested in the facts and

76
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:44,090
unfortunately it seems that in some

77
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:46,970
cases merrell gets them wrong following

78
00:03:54,130 --> 00:03:49,610
are some excerpts taken from an avian

79
00:03:55,930 --> 00:03:54,140
conference DVD filmed in 2002 and we see

80
00:03:59,070 --> 00:03:55,940
that when we look back at the history in

81
00:04:01,990 --> 00:03:59,080
Australia when we look back we see that

82
00:04:04,630 --> 00:04:02,000
these infections these bacterial

83
00:04:07,540 --> 00:04:04,640
meningitis invasive infections have

84
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:07,550
increased exponentially since the

85
00:04:11,830 --> 00:04:09,650
vaccines were introduced not the not the

86
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:11,840
meningitis vaccine since vaccinations

87
00:04:16,690 --> 00:04:13,970
were introduced and started to be used

88
00:04:19,330 --> 00:04:16,700
on a mass level why is that because

89
00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:19,340
vaccination by its very nature can

90
00:04:24,580 --> 00:04:22,580
suppress the immune system here are the

91
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:24,590
facts about the rates of notification

92
00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:26,330
and hospitalization rates for

93
00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:28,820
meningococcal disease in Australia from

94
00:04:34,090 --> 00:04:30,470
the Australian Government Department of

95
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:34,100
Health and Ageing in 2003 the

96
00:04:39,250 --> 00:04:35,650
notification rate for meningococcal

97
00:04:41,470 --> 00:04:39,260
decreased by thirty nine percent while

98
00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:41,480
the hospitalization rate decreased by

99
00:04:46,990 --> 00:04:44,840
forty seven percent these events

100
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:47,000
coincided with the introduction of the

101
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:49,370
National meningococcal see immunization

102
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:54,050
program in January 2003 so the claim by

103
00:04:58,150 --> 00:04:56,330
Merrill Dori that meningococcal has

104
00:05:01,000 --> 00:04:58,160
increased exponentially with mass

105
00:05:03,250 --> 00:05:01,010
vaccination is quite simply wrong the

106
00:05:06,510 --> 00:05:03,260
claims about vaccination suppressing the

107
00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:06,520
immune system is also demonstrably wrong

108
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:08,870
vaccinations introduced small parts of

109
00:05:14,140 --> 00:05:11,690
the bacteria or virus into the body to

110
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:14,150
elicit an immune response which comes in

111
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:16,970
the form of antibodies precisely the

112
00:05:21,310 --> 00:05:19,010
opposite of suppressing the immune

113
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:21,320
system swings into action to make

114
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:22,970
antibodies so that when you are

115
00:05:28,090 --> 00:05:25,130
subsequently challenged by the infection

116
00:05:30,010 --> 00:05:28,100
your body is primed for action here's

117
00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:30,020
Meryl diary speaking on the Sunday night

118
00:05:35,110 --> 00:05:32,690
program about mortality associated with

119
00:05:36,340 --> 00:05:35,120
whooping cough my mother used to put me

120
00:05:38,050 --> 00:05:36,350
with all the neighborhood kids when they

121
00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:38,060
got these diseases so I'd get them can

122
00:05:42,460 --> 00:05:39,710
get them over with and be immune and

123
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:42,470
there was no fear there was no worry

124
00:05:46,030 --> 00:05:43,970
about it we just got them we were

125
00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:46,040
supposed to get them and we did

126
00:05:50,530 --> 00:05:48,800
and we were healthier for them now we

127
00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:50,540
have a medical community that's saying

128
00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:52,190
if you get measles if you get whooping

129
00:05:55,390 --> 00:05:53,510
cough you're going to die from it well

130
00:05:57,190 --> 00:05:55,400
where is the information from that you

131
00:05:58,770 --> 00:05:57,200
didn't die from it 30 years ago and

132
00:06:01,630 --> 00:05:58,780
you're not going to die from it today

133
00:06:04,450 --> 00:06:01,640
Meryl asks for the information so here

134
00:06:06,820 --> 00:06:04,460
it is children do die of whooping cough

135
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:06,830
Dana McCaffrey died of whooping cough on

136
00:06:12,250 --> 00:06:10,610
march nine 2009 according to statistics

137
00:06:15,190 --> 00:06:12,260
from the Department of Health and Ageing

138
00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:15,200
over 16 children under 12 months of age

139
00:06:21,250 --> 00:06:16,850
have died from pertussis or whooping

140
00:06:23,110 --> 00:06:21,260
cough in australia since 1993 New South

141
00:06:25,750 --> 00:06:23,120
Wales is currently experiencing a

142
00:06:30,070 --> 00:06:25,760
whooping cough epidemic in January and

143
00:06:33,190 --> 00:06:30,080
februari of 2009 there were 3356 cases

144
00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:33,200
of whooping cough compared to 448 at the

145
00:06:39,790 --> 00:06:36,530
same time last year across Australia in

146
00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:39,800
2008 there were fourteen thousand 556

147
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:45,220
notifications and so far in 2009 9846

148
00:06:53,020 --> 00:06:48,890
making 2008 the worst year on record for

149
00:06:55,780 --> 00:06:53,030
pertussis in Australia in 2008 on the

150
00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:55,790
north coast of New South Wales 37 people

151
00:07:02,220 --> 00:06:57,530
were admitted to hospital including

152
00:07:05,470 --> 00:07:02,230
seven babies aged less than 12 months

153
00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:05,480
what about if one of your children got

154
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:08,420
whooping cough will he have over jam and

155
00:07:13,030 --> 00:07:10,970
have you see no over on the medical

156
00:07:14,620 --> 00:07:13,040
profession we treated I'm whooping cough

157
00:07:16,030 --> 00:07:14,630
homeopathic alee and none of us were

158
00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:16,040
sick for more than two weeks and my

159
00:07:19,780 --> 00:07:17,690
vaccinated children got it and my

160
00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:19,790
unvaccinated children got it and none of

161
00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:21,320
us were sick for more than two weeks and

162
00:07:26,230 --> 00:07:23,980
it was nothing worse than a bad cough

163
00:07:29,170 --> 00:07:26,240
whooping cough spells can lead to

164
00:07:32,890 --> 00:07:29,180
vomiting rib fractures hernias apnea

165
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:32,900
hemorrhage syncope incontinence seizures

166
00:07:38,380 --> 00:07:35,210
and neurological damage from hypoxia or

167
00:07:40,420 --> 00:07:38,390
lack of oxygen severe complications

168
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:40,430
which occur almost exclusively in

169
00:07:45,610 --> 00:07:42,890
unvaccinated people include seizures and

170
00:07:48,790 --> 00:07:45,620
pneumonia the tossers usually lasts

171
00:07:52,210 --> 00:07:48,800
between six to ten weeks and in China it

172
00:07:54,130 --> 00:07:52,220
is called the hundred days cough ninety

173
00:07:57,130 --> 00:07:54,140
percent of deaths from pertussis are due

174
00:07:59,710 --> 00:07:57,140
to pneumonia after surviving whooping

175
00:08:02,500 --> 00:07:59,720
cough people can develop repeated

176
00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:02,510
spasms with repeated respiratory tract

177
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:05,350
infections for up to two years

178
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:07,490
complications of the disease include

179
00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:09,530
lack of oxygen to the brain leading to

180
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:12,980
brain damage and possibly death whooping

181
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:15,290
cough is much more serious than just a

182
00:08:21,490 --> 00:08:19,130
bad cough now let's listen to the full

183
00:08:24,130 --> 00:08:21,500
unedited interview with producer on

184
00:08:27,550 --> 00:08:24,140
channel 7 Sunday night program Rebecca

185
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:27,560
Lee Tourneau hello Rebecca welcome to

186
00:08:32,589 --> 00:08:29,810
the skeptic zone hello night be with you

187
00:08:34,270 --> 00:08:32,599
now firstly let me congratulate you on a

188
00:08:36,070 --> 00:08:34,280
well-researched and scientifically

189
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:36,080
accurate report on the dangers of not

190
00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:38,810
vaccinating children thank you very much

191
00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:40,280
for that we really set out to try and

192
00:08:43,510 --> 00:08:41,690
give people the best possible

193
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:43,520
information available it's a confusing

194
00:08:47,230 --> 00:08:45,290
landscape out there especially for new

195
00:08:50,710 --> 00:08:47,240
parents and we just wanted to give them

196
00:08:52,870 --> 00:08:50,720
the actual facts escalator well there's

197
00:08:54,790 --> 00:08:52,880
been such a massive response to your

198
00:08:56,770 --> 00:08:54,800
story and can you tell us how

199
00:08:59,350 --> 00:08:56,780
significant it's been and what kind of

200
00:09:01,150 --> 00:08:59,360
feedback you've been getting it's been

201
00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:01,160
enormous and significant for what we can

202
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:03,950
see I think I have to at this point take

203
00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:06,290
my head off and and thank enormously

204
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:08,480
Tony and David McCaffrey who incredibly

205
00:09:12,730 --> 00:09:09,770
bravely at a time when they were in

206
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:12,740
extreme grief agreed to speak with us on

207
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:14,330
national television and gave us so much

208
00:09:18,579 --> 00:09:16,610
of their time to help people understand

209
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:18,589
what is the emotional side of this and

210
00:09:23,260 --> 00:09:20,810
that is the tragic loss of a child to a

211
00:09:24,610 --> 00:09:23,270
preventable disease so that's the first

212
00:09:26,410 --> 00:09:24,620
thing I think I'm when you're trying to

213
00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:26,420
get up to a mass audience important

214
00:09:30,550 --> 00:09:28,310
scientific intellectual information it

215
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:30,560
helps if you can you know show them

216
00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:33,170
where that fits in life and people's

217
00:09:38,770 --> 00:09:35,510
life experience so that was incredibly

218
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:38,780
useful for us and of course then

219
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:41,810
Professor Peter McIntyre from the center

220
00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:43,490
for immunization research and

221
00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:46,430
surveillance who has studied and been

222
00:09:50,650 --> 00:09:48,110
involved with and saturated in this

223
00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:50,660
issue so many many years was enormously

224
00:09:54,940 --> 00:09:53,270
helpful in giving us the correct figures

225
00:09:58,329 --> 00:09:54,950
in the correct situation around the

226
00:10:00,850 --> 00:09:58,339
world and then of course dr. Chris Engel

227
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:00,860
who is the pediatrician who's worked for

228
00:10:05,860 --> 00:10:03,650
20 years on the north coast of far north

229
00:10:08,380 --> 00:10:05,870
coast and has been submerged in this

230
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:08,390
some horrific decline in vaccination

231
00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:10,610
levels and is absolutely tearing his

232
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:11,600
hair up so

233
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:13,730
between the three of those four before

234
00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:16,490
including you know David Tony we were

235
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:17,990
able to put together something that was

236
00:10:22,269 --> 00:10:19,610
not only digestible for a mass audience

237
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:22,279
but full of the right facts sure and it

238
00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:23,810
has been an incredible response and I me

239
00:10:27,879 --> 00:10:25,910
despite the fact that there was of

240
00:10:29,740 --> 00:10:27,889
course a massive response from the

241
00:10:31,809 --> 00:10:29,750
anti-vaccine and I've got to say that

242
00:10:33,670 --> 00:10:31,819
many of those responses i think would

243
00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:33,680
double up Thor or triple ups or

244
00:10:37,509 --> 00:10:35,720
potentially you know 10 responses coming

245
00:10:40,389 --> 00:10:37,519
from one person I don't actually trust a

246
00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:40,399
lot of the sources of those was there

247
00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:42,800
was a very very large response of people

248
00:10:45,970 --> 00:10:44,750
who were grateful for two reasons

249
00:10:48,009 --> 00:10:45,980
firstly because they were probe

250
00:10:49,889 --> 00:10:48,019
explanation or they were in the medical

251
00:10:52,180 --> 00:10:49,899
or scientific community and certainly

252
00:10:54,569 --> 00:10:52,190
parents who were just genuinely confused

253
00:10:57,460 --> 00:10:54,579
and had been assaulted by the

254
00:10:59,800 --> 00:10:57,470
anti-vaccination lobbies information and

255
00:11:02,889 --> 00:10:59,810
being new parents being sleep-deprived

256
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:02,899
being uninformed were genuinely confused

257
00:11:06,519 --> 00:11:05,120
and concerned and they factors and I

258
00:11:09,490 --> 00:11:06,529
thought that actually made an enormous

259
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:09,500
difference with the story mm-hmm well I

260
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:11,120
assume at the debate which is going to

261
00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:13,490
be screened at this sunday and Rebecca

262
00:11:17,139 --> 00:11:15,560
is a direct result of this but I

263
00:11:19,150 --> 00:11:17,149
understand you made a decision to only

264
00:11:21,370 --> 00:11:19,160
include people on the expert panel who

265
00:11:22,660 --> 00:11:21,380
had a scientific or medical background

266
00:11:26,829 --> 00:11:22,670
and can you tell us why you made this

267
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:26,839
decision well I think it stands out that

268
00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:29,689
the way we need to approach this is

269
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:31,670
looking at the figures and the facts

270
00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:34,730
that show us that vaccinations on a mass

271
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:37,910
scale with herd immunity sustained can

272
00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:40,610
eradicate completely eradicate for

273
00:11:45,189 --> 00:11:42,430
example in terms of smallpox a

274
00:11:47,170 --> 00:11:45,199
preventable disease and lower the

275
00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:47,180
districts and lower the rates of misery

276
00:11:51,309 --> 00:11:49,910
and suffering that people go through to

277
00:11:53,079 --> 00:11:51,319
an enormous degree I mean one thing

278
00:11:55,929 --> 00:11:53,089
which really astounded me when we were

279
00:11:57,970 --> 00:11:55,939
speaking with Meryl Dory from the

280
00:11:59,800 --> 00:11:57,980
anti-vaccination lobby and I say that I

281
00:12:00,970 --> 00:11:59,810
mean she says the Australian vaccination

282
00:12:03,069 --> 00:12:00,980
network or whatever it is the

283
00:12:04,179 --> 00:12:03,079
anti-vaccination Robbie I'm not

284
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:04,189
frightened to say that I was speaking

285
00:12:09,939 --> 00:12:07,120
with her I put to her the question that

286
00:12:12,340 --> 00:12:09,949
the doctor chris single had said to me

287
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:12,350
he feared an outbreak of polio in this

288
00:12:15,579 --> 00:12:14,000
region on the north coast where there

289
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:15,589
are only one in three children

290
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:17,810
vaccinated I mean one in three children

291
00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:19,279
has not been vaccinated for anything he

292
00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:22,430
feared a polio epidemic they doing in

293
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:24,230
the Netherlands it could happen here

294
00:12:27,790 --> 00:12:25,610
when I put this question to

295
00:12:30,009 --> 00:12:27,800
merrell surely the you know the facts

296
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:30,019
are sitting in front of you children

297
00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:31,610
died in that community where there was

298
00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:33,980
no vaccination she did not answer the

299
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:36,529
question she went on to say yes but what

300
00:12:40,569 --> 00:12:38,480
do you say what do you say to me when I

301
00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:40,579
tell you forty percent of all children

302
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:42,230
in our country of suffering chronic

303
00:12:47,410 --> 00:12:44,930
disease which of course complete fallacy

304
00:12:50,949 --> 00:12:47,420
I mean reassess every classroom in this

305
00:12:53,319 --> 00:12:50,959
country yes chronic disease rubbish and

306
00:12:54,970 --> 00:12:53,329
she did not confront the fact that these

307
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:54,980
are epidemics could could rear their

308
00:12:59,380 --> 00:12:56,810
heads again whooping cough and measles

309
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,390
has polio could be next in for God's

310
00:13:03,610 --> 00:13:01,040
sake for us to go back to the days of

311
00:13:06,190 --> 00:13:03,620
polio would be the greatest travesty in

312
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:06,200
health ever so your decision to own

313
00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:07,610
include scientific and medical

314
00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:09,769
professionals on the panel this excludes

315
00:13:14,050 --> 00:13:12,260
some of these vocal anti-vaxxers as you

316
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:14,060
mentioned like Meryl diary and what kind

317
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:15,290
of response have you heard from them

318
00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:18,890
with respect to that well I think they

319
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:20,870
were very keen to at least be in the

320
00:13:26,079 --> 00:13:24,170
audience so I think and I you know I not

321
00:13:27,699 --> 00:13:26,089
going to put you know nobody up there

322
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:27,709
that would have been unbalanced

323
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:30,560
reporting in a sense i had to allow them

324
00:13:35,370 --> 00:13:33,920
to have some sort of say and i think you

325
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:35,380
know people will judge themselves

326
00:13:40,569 --> 00:13:38,720
whether or not what they say in the face

327
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:40,579
of what the medical and scientific

328
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:43,610
experts say actually holds any water so

329
00:13:48,970 --> 00:13:45,890
Meryl is in the audience she wanted very

330
00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:48,980
much to be on the stage and I was not

331
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:50,600
willing to do that because I felt that

332
00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:52,250
we wanted to have the scientists and the

333
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:54,470
doctors on the stage to answer people's

334
00:13:59,949 --> 00:13:56,810
questions with scientific facts and

335
00:14:01,600 --> 00:13:59,959
figures it's not an anecdotal argument

336
00:14:04,090 --> 00:14:01,610
this is not an argument where you say

337
00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:04,100
you know a baby was found dead and it's

338
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:05,630
caught after a vaccine therefore all

339
00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:08,240
vaccines are bad you know it's just so

340
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:10,670
far from the way we understand

341
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:12,890
scientific reporting and understanding

342
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:14,810
it's ludicrous so I didn't see any

343
00:14:19,090 --> 00:14:16,250
benefit in that's what the greatest

344
00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:19,100
benefit was to allow a Meryl to UM sit

345
00:14:23,439 --> 00:14:20,540
in the audience and have her safe from

346
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:23,449
there I guess it's going to be

347
00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:25,040
interesting in that sense though Rebecca

348
00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:27,800
because as you mentioned Dana's parents

349
00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:29,529
Tony and David will be in the audience

350
00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:32,420
with Meryl I wonder how that's going to

351
00:14:36,610 --> 00:14:33,800
play out and it's obviously very brave

352
00:14:38,380 --> 00:14:36,620
of them to to be able to do that it is

353
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:38,390
incredibly brave and they spent several

354
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:39,450
days thinking about

355
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:41,250
certain I was happy to give that to them

356
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:43,290
they are the bravest people I've met in

357
00:14:47,390 --> 00:14:45,210
a very long time because they're little

358
00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:47,400
baby only died just over six weeks ago

359
00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:49,800
now so they're an incredible grief and

360
00:14:55,130 --> 00:14:53,100
but they believe so strongly in in two

361
00:14:57,220 --> 00:14:55,140
things firstly that the anti-vaccination

362
00:15:00,500 --> 00:14:57,230
will be is a confusing and

363
00:15:02,780 --> 00:15:00,510
misrepresented a bunch of information

364
00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:02,790
that assaults parent for the time when

365
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:04,200
they're not always able to make an

366
00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:06,450
adequate decision but also because they

367
00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:08,700
are most concerned that today was in a

368
00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:10,830
hospital in a region where there was a

369
00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:12,990
whooping cough epidemic now these are

370
00:15:17,540 --> 00:15:15,420
intelligent educated people but she was

371
00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:17,550
doing everything up to the tiniest of

372
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:19,350
taking folate for example one of

373
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:20,610
something that many pretty women never

374
00:15:24,950 --> 00:15:22,530
bothered to do so during all of the

375
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:24,960
right things she at no stage was

376
00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:26,910
informed that there was a whooping cough

377
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:29,700
epidemic she was not told to be screened

378
00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:31,920
for self or her husband or anybody that

379
00:15:36,020 --> 00:15:34,620
came in touch with the new baby they did

380
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:36,030
not know about the fact that you're

381
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:37,110
supposed to have a whooping cough

382
00:15:43,010 --> 00:15:39,810
booster every 10 years vinod up they had

383
00:15:44,930 --> 00:15:43,020
absolutely no idea and no warning at all

384
00:15:47,020 --> 00:15:44,940
and that's another important message

385
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:47,030
that they want to get out we need a

386
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:50,490
coordinated and and fierce federal

387
00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:52,500
attempts to make sure that people are

388
00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:54,600
informed about these diseases and what

389
00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:55,980
they can do to protect themselves and

390
00:16:00,800 --> 00:15:58,170
their children dynamic a free did not

391
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:00,810
need to die it was only had been better

392
00:16:04,580 --> 00:16:02,730
informed if the community had been

393
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:04,590
better informed that little baby would

394
00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:07,710
be alive today well I understand that as

395
00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:11,400
a direct result of your report the

396
00:16:16,220 --> 00:16:14,040
anti-vaccine bombarding the McCaffrey's

397
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:16,230
with information from the Australian

398
00:16:19,820 --> 00:16:18,240
vaccination Network which to me seems

399
00:16:22,610 --> 00:16:19,830
pretty insensitive at a time like this

400
00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:22,620
oh and it got worse Rachel I mean there

401
00:16:27,050 --> 00:16:24,600
was not only the UM the twisted and

402
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:27,060
tortured moments of information that

403
00:16:31,190 --> 00:16:28,800
they call it but um there were people

404
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:31,200
sending them skin saying and God has

405
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:34,560
chosen Dana to to leave and maybe she's

406
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:38,880
passed a test and if you inject cow and

407
00:16:43,970 --> 00:16:41,250
pig cells and toxic muck into your

408
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:43,980
children then this is what I mean it was

409
00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:46,890
the most horrific incense is downright

410
00:16:51,369 --> 00:16:49,860
cruel material and these people were

411
00:16:53,019 --> 00:16:51,379
viewing this

412
00:16:54,549 --> 00:16:53,029
on the Facebook page they set up in

413
00:16:56,169 --> 00:16:54,559
Dana's memory to allow people to

414
00:16:58,329 --> 00:16:56,179
understand the situation they were doing

415
00:17:00,639 --> 00:16:58,339
it in blogs there were even a couple of

416
00:17:03,849 --> 00:17:00,649
letter sent to their home so I don't

417
00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:03,859
really know where these people feel that

418
00:17:09,759 --> 00:17:06,529
is a positive thing to do for their

419
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:09,769
cause or for the McCaffrey's I found it

420
00:17:15,159 --> 00:17:12,250
absolutely breathtaking in its cruelty

421
00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:15,169
mmm that's yeah that's absolutely

422
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:18,049
disgraceful well Rebecca the

423
00:17:21,970 --> 00:17:19,490
international response to your story has

424
00:17:23,470 --> 00:17:21,980
been overwhelmingly positive the

425
00:17:26,139 --> 00:17:23,480
scientific and medical community are

426
00:17:27,699 --> 00:17:26,149
right behind you we have to say we were

427
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:27,709
all drano this when we sat down in front

428
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:30,080
of our televisions on Sunday we had our

429
00:17:35,799 --> 00:17:33,529
blogs poised announ VCRs ready but we

430
00:17:37,659 --> 00:17:35,809
were absolutely thrilled that your

431
00:17:40,029 --> 00:17:37,669
report was so well based in science and

432
00:17:41,889 --> 00:17:40,039
so well presented so thank you thank you

433
00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:41,899
very much Rachel and thanks to everybody

434
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:44,500
who responded it is important i mean

435
00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:46,370
vaccination is a victim of its own

436
00:17:50,590 --> 00:17:48,230
success in many ways when nothing

437
00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:50,600
happens then it succeeded and nobody

438
00:17:55,060 --> 00:17:53,120
really gets involved so for everybody to

439
00:17:56,980 --> 00:17:55,070
everybody that did respond thank you so

440
00:17:58,779 --> 00:17:56,990
much it makes it so worthwhile for us

441
00:18:01,119 --> 00:17:58,789
and it just means that the the right

442
00:18:03,070 --> 00:18:01,129
messages are out there in quantity and

443
00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:03,080
that's most important thank you very

444
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,820
much we will be continuing to do this

445
00:18:08,110 --> 00:18:06,799
full of work thank you very much Rebecca

446
00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:08,120
and thank you for taking the time to

447
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,990
talk to us today Michael intellectual as

448
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:14,000
part of their mission statement the avn

449
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:16,370
state our goal is to empower people

450
00:18:19,899 --> 00:18:18,440
everywhere to make informed health

451
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:19,909
choices for their families and

452
00:18:24,460 --> 00:18:23,090
themselves I fail to see how one can

453
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:24,470
make an informed choice if the

454
00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:26,210
information they are given is at best

455
00:18:31,659 --> 00:18:29,590
misleading and at worst simply wrong

456
00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:31,669
empower yourself by doing your own

457
00:18:36,610 --> 00:18:33,950
research pick up a textbook about

458
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,620
immunology read websites that explain in

459
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:38,720
simple terms how vaccines work and how

460
00:18:43,570 --> 00:18:40,730
they are developed make up your own mind

461
00:18:46,450 --> 00:18:43,580
and if you think the avn are doing

462
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:46,460
damage join the Facebook page stop the

463
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:49,129
avian and sign the petition at I

464
00:18:54,909 --> 00:18:52,610
petitions com I will link to both of

465
00:18:59,080 --> 00:18:54,919
these on the skeptics own blog located

466
00:19:01,359 --> 00:18:59,090
at skeptic zone wordpress com also check

467
00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:01,369
out my other blog at skeptics book com

468
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:03,350
where you can follow the progress of the

469
00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:05,120
story and watch the videos

470
00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:08,030
I would like to thank some blogging

471
00:19:12,730 --> 00:19:09,590
colleagues who have helped me get this

472
00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:12,740
story out to the world Phil Plait Steve

473
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:16,070
novella and Goldacre pz myers and skip

474
00:19:20,140 --> 00:19:18,410
cheek plus many more to numerous to

475
00:19:23,260 --> 00:19:20,150
mention who all blogged or tweeted the

476
00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:23,270
story but this story is really about

477
00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:25,340
Dana McCaffrey and her brave parents

478
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:27,500
Tony and David to whom we send our

479
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:31,130
support until next time this has been

480
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:50,480
hi Phil Plait from Bad Astronomy calm

481
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:51,510
and the James Randi Educational

482
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:53,910
Foundation here if you want to get an

483
00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:55,770
American take on things like moon

484
00:20:00,020 --> 00:19:57,930
hoaxers astrology chiropractors

485
00:20:01,850 --> 00:20:00,030
creationists anti-vaxxers global warming

486
00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:01,860
denialists homeopaths psychics UFO

487
00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:03,780
believers and doom Criers of any flavor

488
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:07,560
then go to bad astronomy calm Randy org

489
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:10,710
or skeptic blog org and there you'll be

490
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:12,690
able to read me ranting railing frothing

491
00:20:16,970 --> 00:20:14,490
and foaming about hoaxes nonsense

492
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:16,980
pseudoscience anti-science and anyone

493
00:20:26,030 --> 00:20:24,510
who spins folds or mutilates reality so

494
00:20:27,620 --> 00:20:26,040
here we all have had a great day of the

495
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:27,630
mind body spirit or as we call it

496
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:32,970
everybody oh and we were so pleased that

497
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:34,410
were there so many ethical people there

498
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:39,360
this time the Hart Foundation with a

499
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:42,000
lovely young veggie chips yeah they were

500
00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:46,050
nice and the mediocre coffee yes is that

501
00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:48,900
the brand oh yes cover media who coffee

502
00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:52,350
please out here just trying to be

503
00:20:57,260 --> 00:20:54,600
healthy Lane is going any low caffeine

504
00:20:58,910 --> 00:20:57,270
coffee cake I when I was impressed by

505
00:21:00,590 --> 00:20:58,920
effective I get a spark home to put in

506
00:21:02,390 --> 00:21:00,600
my coffee I thought it was totally out

507
00:21:05,030 --> 00:21:02,400
of the kind of character was not natural

508
00:21:09,890 --> 00:21:05,040
that's okay what happened to me I we

509
00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:09,900
were done that's incurable disease I got

510
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:17,499
and this guy from the next and stuck his

511
00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:20,090
head around and he looked at me says you

512
00:21:25,690 --> 00:21:22,820
used to you were there process and he

513
00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:25,700
looked at me I'm chewing chewing gum

514
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:27,919
sugar-free chewing gum and he laughed at

515
00:21:31,659 --> 00:21:29,809
me said hahaha you know that that as

516
00:21:45,690 --> 00:21:31,669
father made gives you brain cancer ha ha

517
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:45,700
ha ha contained like the eyes of you I

518
00:21:51,789 --> 00:21:50,330
and I said I said youth you just telling

519
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:51,799
me that I'm probably gonna get brain

520
00:22:02,139 --> 00:21:54,230
cancer and you're laughing at it I was

521
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:02,149
really happy the correctly that's what

522
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:03,440
I'm really being quite obvious when it's

523
00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:05,330
tangible saying but these people with

524
00:22:14,409 --> 00:22:07,580
the alkaline water can cure kids now I

525
00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:14,419
should have thought about really let me

526
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:18,200
meet up right what we did Richard today

527
00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:20,330
was we went in armed with the code of

528
00:22:25,389 --> 00:22:23,049
conduct yeah that was released in 2008

529
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:25,399
which covers alternative health

530
00:22:29,349 --> 00:22:27,200
practitioners and we play code of

531
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:29,359
conduct bingo we do to see how many

532
00:22:39,129 --> 00:22:34,850
people were adhering to section 17 which

533
00:22:40,989 --> 00:22:39,139
states that this document must be

534
00:22:42,849 --> 00:22:40,999
displayed in a position and manner that

535
00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:42,859
makes it clearly visible to clients

536
00:22:46,779 --> 00:22:44,600
entering the relevant premise of this

537
00:22:50,259 --> 00:22:46,789
document the code of conduct it's piece

538
00:22:51,789 --> 00:22:50,269
of tape yeah yeah no we're going to lead

539
00:22:54,249 --> 00:22:51,799
to that log we're going to link to that

540
00:22:56,770 --> 00:22:54,259
on the UM the skeptic so let's kick the

541
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:56,780
same website i've blogged about this

542
00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:00,240
can I ask and just do a quick um server

543
00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:01,680
here did anyone see this piece of paper

544
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:07,980
displayed clearly no no no no let's get

545
00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:09,690
this displayed a typical images

546
00:23:13,970 --> 00:23:11,460
displayed of psychic life appears the

547
00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:13,980
pad sign up I didn't say that I didn't

548
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:16,710
know I thought it was particularly

549
00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:18,450
interesting that people who were doing

550
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:22,020
like invasive procedures like live but

551
00:23:27,230 --> 00:23:25,200
Nelson taking blood didn't have this on

552
00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:27,240
display so that would be reported to the

553
00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:28,710
Department of Health as soon as I get

554
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:33,750
home were they what what girl that

555
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:35,370
measures were they taken before taking

556
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:37,890
the block she was wearing wearing my

557
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:42,210
last yeah that's protecting her I didn't

558
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:43,710
see anywhere where she would be washing

559
00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:45,450
their hands

560
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:50,049
what every placing doesn't change we

561
00:23:54,269 --> 00:23:52,630
can't say we can't segment I think she

562
00:23:56,430 --> 00:23:54,279
did and I think she was using a new

563
00:23:58,409 --> 00:23:56,440
slide each time yeah but why would you

564
00:24:00,269 --> 00:23:58,419
take the bug with ya I think it's pretty

565
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:00,279
cool looking at brigham yeah changing

566
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:04,240
the slanted everyone we go like this way

567
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:05,710
I know what it looks like the change all

568
00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:07,210
answered in a diabetic finger prayer and

569
00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:09,220
I was watching it and I never sort of go

570
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:11,350
through the motions because you've got

571
00:24:14,159 --> 00:24:12,850
to unscrew the end and take me out and

572
00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:14,169
cover them whatever it might have been

573
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:15,940
disposable and interstate you can get

574
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:20,080
Trombley got half of me but this this is

575
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:22,000
this is all very well what they were

576
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:24,970
peddling was like there's no sir yeah

577
00:24:28,889 --> 00:24:26,890
and we got moved on because we asked too

578
00:24:31,019 --> 00:24:28,899
many questions yeah and tell him when

579
00:24:33,149 --> 00:24:31,029
you tell can you tell the story of how

580
00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:33,159
the guy got cranky because he found that

581
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,270
the government's going to support

582
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:36,159
council drugs she says announced this

583
00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:37,600
morning that the government was going to

584
00:24:43,289 --> 00:24:40,870
subsidize drugs that previously

585
00:24:44,610 --> 00:24:43,299
prohibitive to patients and their visit

586
00:24:45,570 --> 00:24:44,620
freedom of drugs or something and the

587
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:45,580
government's announced they're going to

588
00:24:49,019 --> 00:24:47,679
be six hundred million dollars into this

589
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:49,029
program set of the drugs and our

590
00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:51,520
portable for cancer patients and the guy

591
00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:53,529
peddling the life blood analysis said

592
00:24:58,769 --> 00:24:56,289
that that was the bad thing and when I

593
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:58,779
think Richard or you said why is that a

594
00:25:03,090 --> 00:25:00,159
bad thing he couldn't really give an

595
00:25:04,470 --> 00:25:03,100
answer I asked him if his supplements

596
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:04,480
could actually help me of my head

597
00:25:08,399 --> 00:25:06,610
character and he said I can't tell you

598
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:08,409
that I said so does that mean they don't

599
00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:09,610
what does that mean they're doing is

600
00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:11,529
that I can't tell you that most it so if

601
00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:14,260
the drugs bad that I can get from a

602
00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:17,350
pharmacist if your supplements may or

603
00:25:20,150 --> 00:25:18,760
may not help me that you can't tell me

604
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:20,160
what can I do

605
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:21,810
cancer and he said well there are

606
00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:24,090
methods available to cure cancer so I

607
00:25:32,930 --> 00:25:26,100
asked what those methods were and didn't

608
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:32,940
tell me good news for me if I was sold I

609
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:35,220
was off and Joe right down the other end

610
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:38,370
of the table okay pass that down and

611
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:40,650
just put it sort of about an arm lengths

612
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:43,440
away from you can you tell us I fail of

613
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:46,620
be hung up Oh behavior please stand well

614
00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:48,450
live it up I told them that I had a

615
00:25:53,630 --> 00:25:52,620
friend who is to get pregnant one of the

616
00:25:55,580 --> 00:25:53,640
things that they've mentioned about

617
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:55,590
swine flu recently was that you know

618
00:25:58,820 --> 00:25:57,120
pregnant women will be particularly

619
00:25:59,840 --> 00:25:58,830
susceptible to discuss it in a while you

620
00:26:02,360 --> 00:25:59,850
know I've got a friends that you've

621
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:02,370
become a pregnant and is there anything

622
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:04,410
that she can do to protect yourself from

623
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:07,010
this particularly in the way of you know

624
00:26:12,290 --> 00:26:09,570
vaccinations so on they said well no no

625
00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:12,300
um you know it's all just recently been

626
00:26:16,340 --> 00:26:14,550
established where we are actually you

627
00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:16,350
know going to be we're doing research at

628
00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:18,870
moment to develop a vaccine for swine

629
00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:21,240
flu directors room and I asked them

630
00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:24,780
about I think Rachel and I asked him

631
00:26:33,050 --> 00:26:26,700
about meningococcal and about generally

632
00:26:35,030 --> 00:26:33,060
bad magazine and they told us that I

633
00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:35,040
mean really they were they were loath to

634
00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:37,320
actively say engine specific in regard

635
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:38,700
to vaccinations that became very cagey

636
00:26:44,030 --> 00:26:42,480
about information but they in fact one

637
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:44,040
of the many past jobs that she's

638
00:26:47,570 --> 00:26:45,930
currently treating a child for me think

639
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:47,580
oh yeah yeah and that there is an

640
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:49,410
outbreak of whooping cough in the area

641
00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:52,090
to snogs

642
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:54,760
and that you know supposed to be all of

643
00:26:59,940 --> 00:26:57,010
the children in this area were

644
00:27:02,190 --> 00:26:59,950
vaccinated but first then she said well

645
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:02,200
it hasn't actually been proven that they

646
00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:03,970
do all definitely have new pink off but

647
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:05,590
there's an outbreak that you can have it

648
00:27:10,110 --> 00:27:08,799
was a very strange city and she she said

649
00:27:11,789 --> 00:27:10,120
that she was treating them using

650
00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:11,799
different things because the antibiotics

651
00:27:16,529 --> 00:27:13,150
at the child urban on here in the work

652
00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:16,539
and that we have to find treatments for

653
00:27:19,710 --> 00:27:18,190
this terrible as the cough is different

654
00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:19,720
from one weeks and it's and symptoms

655
00:27:33,539 --> 00:27:30,340
just kept changing the childness to stop

656
00:27:35,310 --> 00:27:33,549
a cop no stop the train Chiklis you can

657
00:27:36,659 --> 00:27:35,320
tibet now listeners may have tweaked

658
00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:36,669
that we're actually in a Chinese

659
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:41,470
restaurant the secret's out um and there

660
00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:44,799
are only 15 of us if ever I beg her of

661
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:47,140
15 or the CIA and the chili sauce is

662
00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:50,710
this arrived how good is that how good

663
00:27:53,639 --> 00:27:52,270
they were cleared on others but we went

664
00:27:55,230 --> 00:27:53,649
out and dr. minions to make sure the

665
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:55,240
numbers were right that's right it's a

666
00:27:59,970 --> 00:27:58,720
very sound from a young numerology

667
00:28:01,289 --> 00:27:59,980
between of you had to burn down the

668
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:01,299
ablest Natalia is preferably got the

669
00:28:04,110 --> 00:28:02,799
Milka Freud so let's plug the restaurant

670
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:04,120
because it's a restaurant that we often

671
00:28:07,919 --> 00:28:06,010
can't be right back but is yes barbecue

672
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:07,929
key in Chinatown city because we came

673
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:09,130
here my night we went to sleep any

674
00:28:12,029 --> 00:28:10,750
hidden couldn't get in we couldn't get

675
00:28:16,289 --> 00:28:12,039
into the end could you do it with no

676
00:28:18,090 --> 00:28:16,299
rain over here now relay him so if

677
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,100
there's a mind body spirit or mind-body

678
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:20,559
wallet personal in your city go along

679
00:28:31,860 --> 00:28:23,850
have a look and more importantly ask

680
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:31,870
when you ask questions they're all

681
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:33,250
looking at me strange person I'm

682
00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:35,170
recording the sizzling estate here at

683
00:28:42,210 --> 00:28:39,580
this time of year now listeners I tell

684
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:42,220
you what this has come to BBQ team in

685
00:28:57,030 --> 00:28:53,890
Sydney's Chinatown oh it's delicious hi

686
00:28:59,100 --> 00:28:57,040
everyone this is andy Kaiser Richard

687
00:29:01,260 --> 00:28:59,110
Saunders was nice enough to let me

688
00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:01,270
interrupt the skeptic zone to tell you

689
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:03,640
about another gust of wind in the

690
00:29:09,450 --> 00:29:06,450
maelstrom of worldwide critical thought

691
00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:09,460
digital bits skeptic is a podcast

692
00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:11,980
dedicated to skepticism and critical

693
00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:14,350
thinking in our world of New Age

694
00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:17,260
religion and credulous pop culture I

695
00:29:22,980 --> 00:29:20,560
myself write a few articles but most are

696
00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:22,990
written by everyone else and they're

697
00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:25,870
paid for that effort if you're an expert

698
00:29:30,330 --> 00:29:28,600
in your field if you need a forum or if

699
00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:30,340
you want to make an impact on not just

700
00:29:36,660 --> 00:29:32,980
the skeptical community but the world at

701
00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:36,670
large I'd like to talk to you or if you

702
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:38,470
just like to listen to a quality

703
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:41,520
skeptical minded podcast that's great to

704
00:30:00,090 --> 00:29:46,570
find the digital bit skeptic at wwd be

705
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:05,130
you

706
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:09,120
a night of ghost hunting in Adelaide in

707
00:30:14,430 --> 00:30:12,310
early April I flew down to Adelaide with

708
00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:14,440
the doctor rachy to help her family

709
00:30:19,650 --> 00:30:16,590
celebrate the occasion of her father

710
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:19,660
Colonel Moussa Dunlop being awarded an

711
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:23,440
oam we took the opportunity why we were

712
00:30:28,860 --> 00:30:25,810
there to go on a bit of a ghost tour a

713
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:28,870
ghost hunt well really more of a

714
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:31,570
torchlight to her they call it of old

715
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:35,410
Adelaide jail before the tour started we

716
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:38,170
had a chat without tour guide Alison o

717
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:50,290
well this is very exciting we're here in

718
00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:54,410
old Adelaide jail and it's dr. 18 hello

719
00:30:58,750 --> 00:30:56,510
dr. G hello and we're speaking with

720
00:31:00,730 --> 00:30:58,760
Allison obour now Allison you are a

721
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:00,740
volunteer here can you tell us a little

722
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:02,570
bit about what you do at the jail yes

723
00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:05,840
and I actually conduct the torchlight to

724
00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:08,390
us here in the jail and so I get called

725
00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:10,940
in whenever we have a private tour along

726
00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:12,580
with a lot of other volunteers and

727
00:31:16,330 --> 00:31:14,660
basically coming for the love of the

728
00:31:18,430 --> 00:31:16,340
place mainly yeah because it's such a

729
00:31:20,049 --> 00:31:18,440
wonderful building I mean we've just

730
00:31:21,970 --> 00:31:20,059
walked in the front door here the big

731
00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:21,980
doors and we're in the little cafe area

732
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,900
but we're surrounded by historical

733
00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:25,760
memorabilia already it's fascinating

734
00:31:28,990 --> 00:31:27,140
yeah and as you go through the jail

735
00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:29,000
you'll see a lot more this museum bits

736
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:31,700
bits from all over it's got a quite a

737
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:33,710
gruesome history hasn't yeah we've had

738
00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:36,710
45 people executed here and even though

739
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:38,270
this is actually not a high-security

740
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:40,190
jail people were brought here for

741
00:31:44,980 --> 00:31:43,130
execution and some 45 people they're

742
00:31:47,410 --> 00:31:44,990
still in the jail they are still buried

743
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:47,420
within the grounds of the jail really

744
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:49,010
and we have lost a few we don't know

745
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:52,610
where they are sir yeah it is actually

746
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:55,850
official cemetery yeah yeah we have we

747
00:31:59,020 --> 00:31:57,770
know where 20 out of the mark and but

748
00:32:00,520 --> 00:31:59,030
some of them we don't know there's no

749
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:00,530
record of where they were buried so

750
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:02,720
that's interesting that's interesting

751
00:32:07,270 --> 00:32:05,330
and of course we're here for the the

752
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:07,280
wonderful fun and the history and the

753
00:32:12,669 --> 00:32:09,290
experience the ghost tour or do you call

754
00:32:14,620 --> 00:32:12,679
of the torchlight 2 i'll always thought

755
00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:14,630
because otherwise people will expect to

756
00:32:18,310 --> 00:32:17,030
think something about obviously yeah if

757
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:18,320
we could promise something like that

758
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:21,890
would be Mecca the leavers non-believers

759
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:23,960
alike and we'd be yeah my obviously

760
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:26,120
can't promise anything well we can all

761
00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:28,720
live in hope Carly oh I do

762
00:32:33,060 --> 00:32:30,700
every time and I'm very jealous and I

763
00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:33,070
don't get to see something how long have

764
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:35,740
you been doing those night tours oh now

765
00:32:41,070 --> 00:32:37,570
I probably been doing them about five

766
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:41,080
years now Oh quite a while and is it

767
00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:45,010
most weeks of the year and yep they were

768
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:48,190
actually remove for a while because the

769
00:32:53,730 --> 00:32:51,610
deh at the time were interested and but

770
00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:53,740
public demand actually I brought them

771
00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:56,260
back so yeah then we got called back in

772
00:33:01,380 --> 00:32:59,440
again to to resume it's been very

773
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:01,390
popular so that was a department of her

774
00:33:05,250 --> 00:33:03,130
yeah because they were more interested

775
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:05,260
in the history of the place and

776
00:33:08,850 --> 00:33:06,850
obviously with bigger government

777
00:33:12,779 --> 00:33:08,860
department were that interested in live

778
00:33:15,090 --> 00:33:12,789
and go side of it ok but public demands

779
00:33:17,159 --> 00:33:15,100
just been taking phoning phony phony I

780
00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:17,169
had to bring them back so that's a good

781
00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:19,480
way to get people in jail that's right

782
00:33:23,310 --> 00:33:20,980
it brings them in because the people

783
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:23,320
will often come back for a history you

784
00:33:25,649 --> 00:33:24,640
know they'll come in and will be very

785
00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:25,659
very interested in the history and

786
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:26,830
although will give a little history

787
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:28,809
tonight obviously it's a mixture yeah

788
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:30,340
and so they can come back and do their

789
00:33:34,140 --> 00:33:32,710
papa tours you know like a time so we're

790
00:33:35,310 --> 00:33:34,150
going to find out tonight about some of

791
00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:35,320
them yeah you're fine doubts about some

792
00:33:39,299 --> 00:33:37,030
of the history is interesting and about

793
00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:39,309
some of the poor people ended up on the

794
00:33:45,870 --> 00:33:44,559
end of the nurse I can see you also be

795
00:33:48,299 --> 00:33:45,880
talking about the new system the

796
00:33:51,299 --> 00:33:48,309
hangings and how their hair they were

797
00:33:53,250 --> 00:33:51,309
done that's all very Christmas Day do

798
00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:53,260
you get people coming along who are

799
00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:55,750
quite hopeful a mighty respect or us

800
00:34:01,230 --> 00:33:58,330
yeah sure we have a little talk at the

801
00:34:03,149 --> 00:34:01,240
beginning about that do you break it to

802
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:03,159
them jet we break it to them gently that

803
00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:08,649
the chances are very slim just enjoy and

804
00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:11,500
how personally do you find that aspect

805
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:13,750
of a quite messy I do yeah it's very

806
00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:16,570
fascinating and more through personal

807
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:19,300
experience and that's generally what

808
00:34:22,829 --> 00:34:20,800
we'll talk about on the tours are

809
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:22,839
personal experiences about that myself

810
00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:25,679
and other volunteers here

811
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:27,750
and people have reported things we'll

812
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:29,609
talk about that what yes they think

813
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:32,700
they've had happened right and yep in

814
00:34:36,829 --> 00:34:34,679
the history as well so you'll get

815
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:36,839
something out back I'm sure we will I'm

816
00:34:40,879 --> 00:34:38,639
looking forward to it immensely I mean

817
00:34:42,589 --> 00:34:40,889
even as I say even in this little room

818
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:42,599
where city and now you can sort of give

819
00:34:48,109 --> 00:34:45,119
a sense of the atmosphere yes no it's

820
00:34:50,750 --> 00:34:48,119
and I said this jail has been left as it

821
00:34:54,889 --> 00:34:50,760
was when it was closed down in 1988 what

822
00:34:56,750 --> 00:34:54,899
you see is literally as it was left you

823
00:34:59,660 --> 00:34:56,760
should get offensive and your say what a

824
00:35:01,339 --> 00:34:59,670
hole in conditions of the living in my

825
00:35:02,990 --> 00:35:01,349
it was just saying before we started

826
00:35:04,549 --> 00:35:03,000
that the conditions weren't good they

827
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:04,559
were they weren't that's why it was shut

828
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:07,530
down here so there's an Aryan here with

829
00:35:11,660 --> 00:35:09,839
a separate areas whether nanalew yea

830
00:35:13,069 --> 00:35:11,670
though i harm they were moved around so

831
00:35:16,839 --> 00:35:13,079
will be interesting a lot of the areas

832
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:16,849
as we go along woods it's creepy already

833
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:19,950
it's also in quite a creepy location and

834
00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:21,930
with the reason I mean it's to describe

835
00:35:26,030 --> 00:35:23,400
it to Allison's it's kind of you drive

836
00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:26,040
through a deserted sort of area past and

837
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,400
all leash there are in fact just railway

838
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,440
lines again I competitive not much else

839
00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:33,599
that's an ass to the atmosphere yeah it

840
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:37,049
does so it's quite remote even a lot

841
00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:38,460
about delight people don't even know

842
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,900
it's here that's true because you know

843
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:41,520
you say about the Adelaide jail we go oh

844
00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:43,380
what's that yeah and it live in Adelaide

845
00:35:47,569 --> 00:35:45,150
all the lives so I take it there's a

846
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:47,579
leave or not there's a modern jail there

847
00:35:52,190 --> 00:35:50,490
is this yet ler and that's up at Grand

848
00:35:54,799 --> 00:35:52,200
Junction burbage's up north a little bit

849
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,809
and that is actually in old jail as well

850
00:35:58,130 --> 00:35:56,400
oh it's only built a few years after

851
00:35:59,720 --> 00:35:58,140
this one and that's where that more

852
00:36:02,450 --> 00:35:59,730
hardcore prisoners would take me years

853
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:02,460
earlier in fact a lot of the walls and

854
00:36:06,260 --> 00:36:04,410
buildings here were built from the

855
00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:06,270
quarry's that the prisoners were working

856
00:36:09,980 --> 00:36:08,520
up at yet Allah sir they've got the

857
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:09,990
stone work down here and built this jar

858
00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:13,680
with it okay when was it operational

859
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:17,390
from windows stuff at 1941

860
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:20,250
so it didn't really have a huge lifespan

861
00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:23,910
a message and just over 150 years oh

862
00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:27,300
icic yeah sorry 19 I'm getting my years

863
00:36:33,050 --> 00:36:30,630
nice i'm officially ahead 1841 that is

864
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:33,060
future my father i do get my 19th mixed

865
00:36:39,110 --> 00:36:36,930
up right wonderful photograph we have

866
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:39,120
behind us is giant blow-up resist of the

867
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:40,650
cheek just actually nothing to do with

868
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,610
the jail it's gonna be removed it just

869
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:46,640
gave a feel I think why put it out yeah

870
00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:49,770
for the period at the time but I

871
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:51,300
remember that before the jail was built

872
00:36:57,260 --> 00:36:55,200
here and there was all settlements under

873
00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:57,270
here when they brought ships in and the

874
00:37:00,320 --> 00:36:58,650
people came into the ships that would

875
00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:00,330
build streets here named after the ships

876
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:03,120
and what they found is that the jail has

877
00:37:07,130 --> 00:37:05,130
been built it's like a cat being put

878
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:07,140
over the history instead of clearing the

879
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:09,210
area they just built over it oh so the

880
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:11,160
archaeologists have come in and they're

881
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:13,290
here at the moment and actually doing

882
00:37:19,610 --> 00:37:16,400
digs and finding archaeological stuff so

883
00:37:22,250 --> 00:37:19,620
again if we get anything happening is it

884
00:37:25,610 --> 00:37:22,260
all to do with the child to do with the

885
00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:25,620
supplements before you know that we've

886
00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:28,110
had reports of things that shouldn't be

887
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,150
there do you get people who have come on

888
00:37:35,390 --> 00:37:32,640
the tours who create quite dumb creep

889
00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:35,400
down oh yes yes they do a good job of

890
00:37:41,150 --> 00:37:39,300
that as we said the beginning is

891
00:37:45,020 --> 00:37:41,160
anything happens it's not ask you'll do

892
00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:45,030
a good job about yourself because i like

893
00:37:49,610 --> 00:37:47,910
it i can imagine that people could leave

894
00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:49,620
their imaginations get the better off I

895
00:37:55,370 --> 00:37:52,740
think you can't anywhere thats dark okay

896
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:55,380
well i got a history of 45 people being

897
00:38:00,980 --> 00:37:58,650
killed yes would helpful laughing yeah

898
00:38:02,510 --> 00:38:00,990
so they do experience things we do have

899
00:38:04,220 --> 00:38:02,520
been on a couple tours and we've had

900
00:38:05,620 --> 00:38:04,230
boards little things happen which we

901
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:05,630
will talk about

902
00:38:10,319 --> 00:38:07,609
but if I it's cursed it comes down to

903
00:38:13,569 --> 00:38:10,329
personal experience yeah yeah or even

904
00:38:15,549 --> 00:38:13,579
I've been on quite a few girls to us and

905
00:38:17,980 --> 00:38:15,559
I must have enjoyed everyone yeah it's

906
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:17,990
been marvelous fun all bar one which

907
00:38:24,430 --> 00:38:22,490
took itself so seriously and and again

908
00:38:26,349 --> 00:38:24,440
we're talking before about when people

909
00:38:28,359 --> 00:38:26,359
make absurd claim yeah it's all about

910
00:38:31,059 --> 00:38:28,369
making open-minded claim laundry but

911
00:38:33,819 --> 00:38:31,069
when you just talk rubbish especially

912
00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:33,829
when they were suggesting that every all

913
00:38:42,970 --> 00:38:36,529
in the in the cameras was it was a I

914
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:42,980
guess Alison's grimacing at the palace

915
00:38:46,059 --> 00:38:44,630
and you know some things about all donee

916
00:38:49,150 --> 00:38:46,069
you mentioned earlier that you've done

917
00:38:52,359 --> 00:38:49,160
some research into all yeah we did a lot

918
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:52,369
of research and we've done a lot of

919
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:56,450
experimentation with cameras I mean I

920
00:39:00,609 --> 00:38:57,890
might as well say that we were a team

921
00:39:03,609 --> 00:39:00,619
here and that came in to look at the

922
00:39:05,650 --> 00:39:03,619
place and you know we test all our

923
00:39:07,269 --> 00:39:05,660
cameras we tested it with dust we tested

924
00:39:09,569 --> 00:39:07,279
it with moisture we tested a bit hair

925
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:09,579
and you can get some wonderful events

926
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:12,710
visually the hair really yeah and

927
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:15,049
because we've had quite often you'll

928
00:39:18,490 --> 00:39:17,569
just get the orbs but you don't see the

929
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:18,500
rest of the shaft of the hair

930
00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:21,890
interesting yeah and sometimes you'll

931
00:39:24,819 --> 00:39:23,630
get what looks like an all pleating

932
00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:24,829
across because it looks like it's got

933
00:39:29,710 --> 00:39:27,529
the tail ya know it's all picture if you

934
00:39:31,809 --> 00:39:29,720
going to be very careful and because

935
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:31,819
well we do because you know we can

936
00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:34,400
recreate the Moonbeam absolutely I mean

937
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,529
I'm sure our listeners know that when

938
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:38,720
they get a lot of their pictures taking

939
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:40,250
pictures of the flash don't get all

940
00:39:43,630 --> 00:39:42,110
every now and everywhere I mean I've

941
00:39:45,250 --> 00:39:43,640
gotten orbs in every sort of room and

942
00:39:46,990 --> 00:39:45,260
environment you can imagine well I went

943
00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:47,000
on a ghost to Sydney once and it was

944
00:39:53,770 --> 00:39:49,430
raining lightly so every financial were

945
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:53,780
the flash they were all like Nathan it's

946
00:39:58,530 --> 00:39:55,190
ready to get happened but that's one of

947
00:40:01,570 --> 00:39:58,540
the good things I mean if it was a

948
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:01,580
spirit or something extra what fine well

949
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:03,890
and good yeah but if it's not then it's

950
00:40:08,170 --> 00:40:05,810
best to say well look in this situation

951
00:40:11,290 --> 00:40:08,180
this is the real answer and another

952
00:40:13,570 --> 00:40:11,300
thing keeping it honest okay because I

953
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:13,580
mean when I went into good I mean as i

954
00:40:18,190 --> 00:40:15,290
said i'll admit i went into paranormal

955
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:18,200
investigation but when i went into it 15

956
00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:22,250
years ago and i wanted answers but i

957
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:24,200
wanted true answers and if i start

958
00:40:27,790 --> 00:40:26,330
believing everything that I get then I'm

959
00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:27,800
lying to myself yeah and that's not

960
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:30,230
getting me an answer so yeah I've had

961
00:40:34,270 --> 00:40:31,760
experiences along way now we'll talk

962
00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:34,280
about that but what they are you know

963
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:36,230
who can say so right why did you get

964
00:40:39,850 --> 00:40:38,030
involved in paranormal research to begin

965
00:40:41,470 --> 00:40:39,860
with us and where you fastener onto it

966
00:40:44,050 --> 00:40:41,480
we're just assassinated by Oh

967
00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:44,060
interesting then had a few experiences

968
00:40:48,940 --> 00:40:47,030
as a child and now I wanted to know

969
00:40:51,130 --> 00:40:48,950
where they real you were there not real

970
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:51,140
and that's how I got gone into it and I

971
00:40:55,570 --> 00:40:52,310
just couldn't get away from it just

972
00:40:58,960 --> 00:40:55,580
draws you in minor so and everybody

973
00:41:00,130 --> 00:40:58,970
everybody likes it up nicely and at the

974
00:41:04,140 --> 00:41:00,140
end the day we'd all like to know if

975
00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:04,150
there anything else and yet not

976
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:07,240
basically lately been looking into

977
00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:10,640
paranoia and find it very fascinating

978
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:13,150
and we did have a lot of photographs and

979
00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:16,400
not just from the jail but through seven

980
00:41:21,130 --> 00:41:18,460
years of research that we've done and

981
00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:21,140
now with a better understanding we've

982
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:23,060
gone back over those photographs and

983
00:41:28,420 --> 00:41:26,090
pretty much debunked most of them but

984
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:28,430
I'd rather do that be honest come

985
00:41:32,050 --> 00:41:30,050
forward and say look we were wrong it's

986
00:41:34,210 --> 00:41:32,060
not it's this and I'm trying to educate

987
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:34,220
other teams to look at

988
00:41:38,740 --> 00:41:36,770
for this so yeah not just written an

989
00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:38,750
article it's up on our website we put

990
00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:40,550
our photographs up that a lot of people

991
00:41:44,910 --> 00:41:41,630
would have thought were really good

992
00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:44,920
shots and but unfortunately yeah we've

993
00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:47,240
proven going out there police open up

994
00:41:54,820 --> 00:41:50,780
that you as you're taken oh we knock our

995
00:41:56,589 --> 00:41:54,830
own if we can't knock around and you

996
00:42:00,849 --> 00:41:56,599
know you can't I think we can't question

997
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:00,859
other people's fair and bal average to

998
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:03,410
doing it because why kid yourself yeah

999
00:42:06,970 --> 00:42:05,210
why thank you sir I love you sincerely

1000
00:42:10,330 --> 00:42:06,980
looking for something you don't settle

1001
00:42:11,890 --> 00:42:10,340
for a maybe or if you realize you're

1002
00:42:13,810 --> 00:42:11,900
wrong I mean science does this all the

1003
00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:13,820
time science goes often gets things

1004
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:17,180
wrong but it's self correcting their

1005
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:19,280
arrival step everyone steps I tried yeah

1006
00:42:23,710 --> 00:42:20,890
so i think that's that's a very good

1007
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:23,720
philosopher you may have come across do

1008
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:25,280
you know Richard Wiseman and he was

1009
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:26,930
hired him yes have you seen this guy's

1010
00:42:32,890 --> 00:42:30,770
project that's just come talk he called

1011
00:42:35,050 --> 00:42:32,900
for people to submit their best ghost

1012
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:35,060
boat as opposed to the top ten on his

1013
00:42:39,070 --> 00:42:37,280
website I allister's may have seen it

1014
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:39,080
just got a Richard Wiseman vehicle which

1015
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:40,910
applies when you find it and he's got

1016
00:42:44,620 --> 00:42:42,650
all these wonderful shots but some of

1017
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:44,630
them are really obviously just all yeah

1018
00:42:49,770 --> 00:42:46,310
I mean you would be should have a lot

1019
00:42:55,329 --> 00:42:49,780
better because my chicken ahead oh yeah

1020
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:55,339
she's on my team members but it's

1021
00:42:58,089 --> 00:42:56,570
similar to what you're talking now I

1022
00:43:00,099 --> 00:42:58,099
looked at Alice photographs and began to

1023
00:43:02,349 --> 00:43:00,109
explain you know most likely what they

1024
00:43:04,810 --> 00:43:02,359
yeah so yeah I mean it's like in the

1025
00:43:06,370 --> 00:43:04,820
article I cover the fact of how a little

1026
00:43:09,130 --> 00:43:06,380
bit i mean obviously I'm not a scientist

1027
00:43:10,420 --> 00:43:09,140
and in our website you will see I will

1028
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:10,430
not make a claim that we do it in a

1029
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:12,410
scientific manner because we we got

1030
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:14,210
we're not scientists we do not have that

1031
00:43:17,890 --> 00:43:16,640
understanding what we term it as is we

1032
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:17,900
try and do in a more technical manner

1033
00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:21,050
and we don't use Claire boys not that

1034
00:43:23,950 --> 00:43:22,640
I'm saying clairvoyants the wrong or we

1035
00:43:25,410 --> 00:43:23,960
don't agree with them or the knocked-up

1036
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:25,420
but we didn't want to use them ourselves

1037
00:43:29,890 --> 00:43:28,160
and because how do you substantiate a

1038
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:29,900
claim

1039
00:43:34,330 --> 00:43:31,490
come a story so we just wanted to keep

1040
00:43:36,490 --> 00:43:34,340
it on that you know technical level well

1041
00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:36,500
it's very easy for someone ministers you

1042
00:43:40,270 --> 00:43:38,600
can sit here and say oh yes there's a

1043
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:40,280
ghost right behind Jack and soon really

1044
00:43:45,790 --> 00:43:43,910
Maki just work yeah and they're probably

1045
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:45,800
very talented people out there it's not

1046
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:47,450
um you know certainly don't want people

1047
00:43:52,270 --> 00:43:50,570
to think I'm knocking and it's just not

1048
00:43:53,770 --> 00:43:52,280
the way we wanted to work now when you

1049
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:53,780
say your website at something this

1050
00:43:57,460 --> 00:43:54,890
website know another way that's like

1051
00:43:59,770 --> 00:43:57,470
we've got another one and paranormal

1052
00:44:01,890 --> 00:43:59,780
field investigators dot com I'll give

1053
00:44:05,050 --> 00:44:01,900
you a card oh thank you paranormal field

1054
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:05,060
investigators doctor all well listen as

1055
00:44:09,850 --> 00:44:06,650
I advise you to run and have a look at

1056
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:09,860
that site absolutely so I mentioned

1057
00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:12,560
earlier you spent 6 years here research

1058
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:14,150
yeah we came in here for three months

1059
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:16,250
and ended up staying around six years

1060
00:44:22,660 --> 00:44:19,760
Wow and it was just again we had a sort

1061
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:22,670
of controlled environment whereby we

1062
00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:24,560
knew who was in here are you there

1063
00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:27,710
wasn't yes and so it helped do all that

1064
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:30,590
do you mean well we could come in on the

1065
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:33,170
road well yeah people as so we can come

1066
00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:34,640
in on their own that's produced and

1067
00:44:37,390 --> 00:44:35,630
we're pretty much yeah we're pretty

1068
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:37,400
silly or and if we know that the far

1069
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:39,170
outside interference when you who was

1070
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:40,850
thinking at the time so when he said

1071
00:44:44,650 --> 00:44:42,890
when was that a group of researchers oh

1072
00:44:47,740 --> 00:44:44,660
yeah there's the six of us in the group

1073
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:47,750
okay is that as a keep it small and just

1074
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:50,000
a group that was formed about 15 well

1075
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:51,470
actually this one was formed about seven

1076
00:44:55,210 --> 00:44:53,450
years ago I mean because I found

1077
00:44:57,370 --> 00:44:55,220
basically that I wanted to do it the way

1078
00:45:00,100 --> 00:44:57,380
I wanted to do it any way to do that was

1079
00:45:02,290 --> 00:45:00,110
to form your own good at the time so you

1080
00:45:04,180 --> 00:45:02,300
can do it your own way right fair enough

1081
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:04,190
so what are they discovered in that time

1082
00:45:09,820 --> 00:45:07,010
you've been research wait mainly comes

1083
00:45:11,860 --> 00:45:09,830
down to personal experience and as I

1084
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:11,870
think about our group is we don't put

1085
00:45:17,950 --> 00:45:14,090
stuff out then so that's paranormal it's

1086
00:45:19,810 --> 00:45:17,960
that's interesting that's curious how do

1087
00:45:22,210 --> 00:45:19,820
I prove to you or how to prove to

1088
00:45:24,850 --> 00:45:22,220
anybody that that was a ghost found you

1089
00:45:27,130 --> 00:45:24,860
really can't and so what you do is you

1090
00:45:29,770 --> 00:45:27,140
just can only give your experiences

1091
00:45:31,870 --> 00:45:29,780
people will either take it

1092
00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:31,880
go with it or they'll not it's up to

1093
00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:33,590
them and but all I can say is that would

1094
00:45:37,450 --> 00:45:35,390
be my experience as a team Lord we had

1095
00:45:38,980 --> 00:45:37,460
happened sir you mentioned earlier that

1096
00:45:42,670 --> 00:45:38,990
your photographer as well as a

1097
00:45:44,170 --> 00:45:42,680
photographer about anything that you

1098
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:44,180
can't explain I mean you mentioned the

1099
00:45:51,550 --> 00:45:47,810
all time look photography for me isn't a

1100
00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:51,560
medium that I would trust and mainly cuz

1101
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:53,390
you've only got one still shot of that

1102
00:45:59,020 --> 00:45:56,810
moment and as we know it could be lens

1103
00:46:00,640 --> 00:45:59,030
reflection but on a movie you would see

1104
00:46:01,870 --> 00:46:00,650
that those things we have around you its

1105
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:01,880
stated thing moving across the screen

1106
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:03,920
yes yeah that makes sense i'll probably

1107
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:06,890
rambling no no and so to meet

1108
00:46:13,330 --> 00:46:10,640
photography and as I got pareidolia our

1109
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:13,340
friend and so to meet photography in

1110
00:46:23,350 --> 00:46:17,090
itself a photograph isn't enough to be

1111
00:46:25,180 --> 00:46:23,360
good evidence I'll again EVP I know

1112
00:46:29,860 --> 00:46:25,190
people dispute it I really do have to

1113
00:46:31,690 --> 00:46:29,870
look more into it I enjoy more but again

1114
00:46:35,380 --> 00:46:31,700
there's lots of factors in that has been

1115
00:46:37,090 --> 00:46:35,390
49 and we're at the end of the day it

1116
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:37,100
comes down to personal experience mmm

1117
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:40,250
it's basically that's what I hear yes

1118
00:46:44,020 --> 00:46:43,010
ma'am it's Anna she's very scary and

1119
00:46:52,180 --> 00:46:44,030
it's probably going to be the scariest

1120
00:46:54,910 --> 00:46:52,190
thing you see tonight don't talk too

1121
00:46:56,350 --> 00:46:54,920
loudly she might hear you so what would

1122
00:46:58,180 --> 00:46:56,360
it take to convince you and would it

1123
00:47:00,820 --> 00:46:58,190
take a movie perhaps as you just

1124
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:00,830
mentioned all ah look I mean people say

1125
00:47:08,110 --> 00:47:03,610
do I believe this I mean yeah I

1126
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:08,120
personally experienced that have put to

1127
00:47:12,670 --> 00:47:09,710
me that there may be something out there

1128
00:47:16,050 --> 00:47:12,680
more than what we know and but that's

1129
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:16,060
because I my personal experiences and

1130
00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:19,370
but even then I question and I mean

1131
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:21,350
think about the tour also it isn't I

1132
00:47:25,150 --> 00:47:23,090
mean why don't take myself seriously and

1133
00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:25,160
you know the festive dance but and it's

1134
00:47:29,930 --> 00:47:26,550
not one of those jump out at you

1135
00:47:36,770 --> 00:47:29,940
good good I mean I'm hoping yourself so

1136
00:47:40,940 --> 00:47:36,780
I'll jump have it it's what I don't do

1137
00:47:45,290 --> 00:47:40,950
that no nothing tacky the no sound

1138
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:45,300
effects Mar a big caper no don't happen

1139
00:47:52,850 --> 00:47:50,160
or what is it the fashionable Oh top of

1140
00:47:55,220 --> 00:47:52,860
it now Alison of course if our listeners

1141
00:47:56,570 --> 00:47:55,230
want to visit the jail or they're living

1142
00:47:58,850 --> 00:47:56,580
in Adelaide neglecting visit the jail

1143
00:48:05,690 --> 00:47:58,860
they're just visiting they can ring here

1144
00:48:26,350 --> 00:48:05,700
on Adelaide 823 1406 too or just easily

1145
00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:28,910
little booth of the front whether the

1146
00:48:34,010 --> 00:48:30,660
prison would water in there although the

1147
00:48:48,180 --> 00:48:34,020
garden it was very good stuff yeah you

1148
00:48:54,069 --> 00:48:51,339
this is frozen songs from coyote music

1149
00:48:56,410 --> 00:48:54,079
com the site where i write and release a

1150
00:49:02,690 --> 00:48:56,420
new song for free every week with topics

1151
00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:07,300
wacky theories

1152
00:49:07,310 --> 00:49:13,230
science and logic

1153
00:49:18,039 --> 00:49:15,999
and anything else across is the mind of

1154
00:49:20,559 --> 00:49:18,049
this form of free shuttle back so head

1155
00:49:21,870 --> 00:49:20,569
to kod music com to get a skeptical

1156
00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:21,880
music thing

1157
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:26,830
CH AR t IM USIC calm you may

1158
00:49:45,820 --> 00:49:43,540
well thanks for listening to the

1159
00:49:49,810 --> 00:49:45,830
skeptics owned remember we're on twitter

1160
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:49,820
which is twitter.com slash skeptic zone

1161
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:51,650
please follow us and keep up to date

1162
00:49:56,650 --> 00:49:54,530
with what we're doing until next week

1163
00:50:01,930 --> 00:49:56,660
this is Richard Saunders from Sydney

1164
00:50:06,250 --> 00:50:01,940
Australia you've been listening to the

1165
00:50:09,490 --> 00:50:06,260
skeptic zone visit our website at WWF

1166
00:50:12,839 --> 00:50:09,500
digs on TV for comments contacts and